Panic Button: The April Wilkens Case

The Other Murder | 8

Before we get to the defense case, we wanted listeners to hear the story of some suppressed evidence in the case. In October of 1997, Terry's nephew lived in Kansas City and was in an on-again-off-again relationship with a girl named Anastasia. Anastasia was found shot on the morning of October 23rd, 1997 in a cemetery.
When Terry heard about Anastasia's death, he told April--"She got what she deserved, and you're next." Even though April's attorney's tried to get this in at her trial, the court suppressed the evidence after the State motioned to keep it out. In this episode, we discuss Anastasia's murder, and the other crazy case tied into this story.
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The website about Anastasia maintained by her father, Robert Witbolsfeugen: https://www.stasia.org/
The website for advocates of Byron Case's innocence. http://www.freebyroncase.com/
A book by one of the jurors in Byron's murder trial: https://www.amazon.com/Skeptical-Juror-Trial-Byron-Case/dp/0984271600
Detailed Timeline of Events in April's Case compiled by April herself with help from her niece, Amanda: https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/12/timeline-of-events/
Sign the Change.org petition to support April's release: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-pardon-parole-board-commute-the-life-sentence-of-abuse-survivor-april-wilkens?signed=true
Donate to keep our work going!: neappleseed.org/okappleseed
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed: okappleseed.org
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Learn more about criminalized survival at www.survivedandpunishedny.org/.
Learn more about the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act at www.nysda.org/page/DVSJA.
Follow the #freeaprilwilkens campaign on Instagram at @freeaprilwilkens, on Twitter and on their webpage at https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/.
Colleen McCarty is one of the hosts, executive director of Oklahoma Appleseed, and producer.  Leslie Briggs is the other host who is a civil rights and immigration attorney, and producer. Rusty Rowe provides substantial audio production support. We're recorded at Bison and Bean Studios in Tulsa. Additional support from Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner. Our theme music is Velvet Rope by Gyom. 
Panic Button is created in partnership with Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie Briggs. Follow OK Appleseed on Twitter and Instagram at @ok_appleseed.
If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our Panic Button podcast community on Bookclubz at bit.ly/3NRHO8C.

Manipulating the Truth | 9

This week's episode we talk through the first part of the defense's case in April Wilkens' murder trial.  April testified in her own defense for three days about how she was pushed to a breaking point after over two years of horrific abuse. Coupled with a total apathy on the part of the police, April felt the only choice she had was to defend her life.The rest of the defense's case centers on what led April to have to fight for her life the night of April 28th, 1998. Even with all the evidence of April's prior abuse coming in, the jury has a hard time making sense of the scrambled timeline. 
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Detailed Timeline of Events in April's Case compiled by April herself with help from her niece, Amanda: https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/12/timeline-of-events/
Sign the Change.org petition to support April's release: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-pardon-parole-board-commute-the-life-sentence-of-abuse-survivor-april-wilkens?signed=true
Donate to keep our work going!: neappleseed.org/okappleseed
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed: okappleseed.org
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Learn more about criminalized survival at www.survivedandpunishedny.org/.
Learn more about the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act at www.nysda.org/page/DVSJA.
Follow the #freeaprilwilkens campaign on Instagram at @freeaprilwilkens, on Twitter and on their webpage at freeaprilwilkens.com.
Colleen McCarty is one of the hosts, executive director of Oklahoma Appleseed, and producer.  Leslie Briggs is the other host who is a civil rights and immigration attorney, and producer. Rusty Rowe provides substantial audio production support. We're recorded at Bison and Bean Studios in Tulsa. Additional support from Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner. Our theme music is Velvet Rope by Gyom. 
Panic Button is created in partnership with Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie Briggs. Follow OK Appleseed on Twitter and Instagram at @ok_appleseed.
If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our Panic Button podcast community on Bookclubs at bit.ly/3NRHO8C.

The Dr. John Call Disaster | 10

This week's episode we talk through the second part of the defense's case in April Wilkens' murder trial.  We look at what the prosecution had to prove to overcome April's claim of self defense, and the difference between traditional self defense and the defense of Battered Womens' Syndrome. 
April's attorney called an expert witness to explain to the jury what Battered Women's Syndrome was, and how it could explain April's behavior leading up to Terry's death. Unfortunately, instead of explaining anything he calls April's behavior "stupid" and "unreasonable" from the stand.
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See the Battered Women's Syndrome instruction send back with the jury in April's murder case: okappleseed.org/episode-10-show-notes
Detailed Timeline of Events in April's Case compiled by April herself with help from her niece, Amanda: https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/12/timeline-of-events/
Sign the Change.org petition to support April's release: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-pardon-parole-board-commute-the-life-sentence-of-abuse-survivor-april-wilkens?signed=true
Donate to keep our work going!: neappleseed.org/okappleseed
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed: okappleseed.org
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Learn more about criminalized survival at www.survivedandpunishedny.org/.
Learn more about the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act at www.nysda.org/page/DVSJA.
Follow the #freeaprilwilkens campaign on Instagram at @freeaprilwilkens, on Twitter and on their webpage at freeaprilwilkens.com.
Colleen McCarty is one of the hosts, executive director of Oklahoma Appleseed, and producer.  Leslie Briggs is the other host who is a civil rights and immigration attorney, and producer. Rusty Rowe provides substantial audio production support. We're recorded at Bison and Bean Studios in Tulsa. Additional support from Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner. Our theme music is Velvet Rope by Gyom. 
Panic Button is created in partnership with Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie Briggs. Follow OK Appleseed on Twitter and Instagram at @ok_appleseed.
If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our Panic Button podcast community on Bookclubs at bit.ly/3NRHO8C.

The True Experts | 11

On the last episode, we heard about how April's expert witness at trial, Dr. John Call, was not truly an expert in Battered Womens' Syndrome. So, on this episode we wanted to hear from some real experts about domestic violence, how the research has changed since April's trial, and the biggest issues with John Call's testimony.
We welcome two experts: 1) Molly Bryant, Licensed Master Social Worker, who formerly worked with victims at Domestic Violence Intervention Services, and 2) Angela Beatty, Chief Program Officer at YWCA Oklahoma City who is working on her Masters' in Social Work. Both of these experts are certified Battered Womens Syndrome experts in Oklahoma Courts. This discussion with them was so enlightening and further helped us realize what was missing from April's defense. 
___________________
DVIS 
YWCA Oklahoma City 
Research on trauma informed care for domestic violence survivors
Detailed Timeline of Events in April's Case compiled by April herself with help from her niece, Amanda: https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/12/timeline-of-events/
Sign the Change.org petition to support April's release: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-pardon-parole-board-commute-the-life-sentence-of-abuse-survivor-april-wilkens?signed=true
Donate to keep our work going!: neappleseed.org/okappleseed
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed: okappleseed.org
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Learn more about criminalized survival at www.survivedandpunishedny.org/.
Learn more about the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act at www.nysda.org/page/DVSJA.
Follow the #freeaprilwilkens campaign on Instagram at @freeaprilwilkens, on Twitter and on their webpage at freeaprilwilkens.com.
Colleen McCarty is one of the hosts, executive director of Oklahoma Appleseed, and producer.  Leslie Briggs is the other host who is a civil rights and immigration attorney, and producer. Rusty Rowe provides substantial audio production support. We're recorded at Bison and Bean Studios in Tulsa. Additional support from Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner. Our theme music is Velvet Rope by Gyom. 
Panic Button is created in partnership with Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie Briggs. Follow OK Appleseed on Twitter and Instagram at @ok_appleseed.
If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our Panic Button podcast community on Bookclubs at bit.ly/3NRHO8C.

The Aftermath | 12

On the final episode of Season 1, Panic Button hosts discuss the verdict. Listeners will hear from a juror what the focus of jury deliberations was, and how they came to decide April was guilty.
Listeners will also hear what happened on appeal and where April's case stands now. 
If you want to follow our efforts to change the laws in Oklahoma to allow criminalized survivors like April to be resentenced by the court after a showing of abuse, sign up at freeaprilwilkens.com or okappleseed.org.
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Lynn Worley's 2009 letter to the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board 
Don Carlton's marriage certificate showing Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals judge Charles Johnson performed his wedding.
Detailed Timeline of Events in April's Case compiled by April herself with help from her niece, Amanda: https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/12/timeline-of-events/
Sign the Change.org petition to support April's release: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-pardon-parole-board-commute-the-life-sentence-of-abuse-survivor-april-wilkens?signed=true
Donate to keep our work going!: neappleseed.org/okappleseed
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed: okappleseed.org
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Learn more about criminalized survival at www.survivedandpunishedny.org/.
Learn more about the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act at www.nysda.org/page/DVSJA.
Follow the #freeaprilwilkens campaign on Instagram at @freeaprilwilkens, on Twitter and on their webpage at freeaprilwilkens.com.
Colleen McCarty is one of the hosts, executive director of Oklahoma Appleseed, and producer.  Leslie Briggs is the other host who is a civil rights and immigration attorney, and producer. Rusty Rowe provides substantial audio production support. We're recorded at Bison and Bean Studios in Tulsa. Additional support from Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner. Our theme music is Velvet Rope by Gyom. 
Panic Button is created in partnership with Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie Briggs. Follow OK Appleseed on Twitter and Instagram at @ok_appleseed.
If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our Panic Button podcast community on Bookclubs at bit.ly/3NRHO8C.

BONUS: Panic Button LIVE September 24th

On September 24th, 2022, Panic Button hosts Colleen McCarty and Leslie Briggs were featured on a live panel with domestic violence expert Molly Bryant, and #freeaprilwilkens advocate Amanda Ross. Amanda is April Wilkens's niece. The panel was moderated by local indigenous activist Apollonia Piña. The panel was hosted by the Center for Public Secrets in Tulsa. 
Listen to the event audio, and hear the audience Q&A as the panel discusses April's case, as well as the larger cultural question of how create a survivor-led revolution in domestic violence policy.
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Center for Public Secrets - https://www.centerforpublicsecrets.org/
Detailed Timeline of Events in April's Case compiled by April herself with help from her niece, Amanda: https://aprilwilkensblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/12/timeline-of-events/
Sign the Change.org petition to support April's release: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-pardon-parole-board-commute-the-life-sentence-of-abuse-survivor-april-wilkens?signed=true
Donate to keep our work going!: neappleseed.org/okappleseed
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed: okappleseed.org
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Learn more about criminalized survival at www.survivedandpunishedny.org/.
Learn more about the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act at www.nysda.org/page/DVSJA.
Follow the #freeaprilwilkens campaign on Instagram at @freeaprilwilkens, on Twitter and on their webpage at freeaprilwilkens.com.
Colleen McCarty is one of the hosts, executive director of Oklahoma Appleseed, and producer.  Leslie Briggs is the other host who is a civil rights and immigration attorney, and producer. Rusty Rowe provides substantial audio production support. We're recorded at Bison and Bean Studios in Tulsa. Additional support from Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner. Our theme music is Velvet Rope by Gyom. 
Panic Button is created in partnership with Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie Briggs. Follow OK Appleseed on Twitter and Instagram at @ok_appleseed.
If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our Panic Button podcast community on Bookclubs at bit.ly/3NRHO8C.

Update

Leslie and Colleen give a short update on April's case, the efforts in Oklahoma to bring justice to survivors, and the activities happening in Oklahoma next week to support HB 1639, a bill that will help people who were victims of domestic violence at the time of their crime get sentencing relief.
 
 
______
TRANSCRIPTION
SPEAKERS
Colleen McCarty, Leslie Briggs
 
Leslie Briggs  00:17
Hey, Colleen.
 
Colleen McCarty  00:18
Hey Leslie,
 
Leslie Briggs  00:19
welcome back to the studio.
 
Colleen McCarty  00:21
I'm so glad to be back here. Bison & Bean with you.
 
Leslie Briggs  00:25
It's been too long.
 
Colleen McCarty  00:26
It's been a wild ride,
 
Leslie Briggs  00:28
guys, we have updates.
 
Colleen McCarty  00:30
We have so many updates. We never sleep. So
 
Leslie Briggs  00:34
we do not sleep. It's gnarly. I'm so tired.
 
Colleen McCarty  00:38
We don't wish this on you. But we're happy to give you all the updates and all the work we've been doing for the last six months since we wrapped our last episode of panic button. The April Wilkins case. Yeah. What's been happening?
 
Leslie Briggs  00:51
Well, I came to work for you. Oh, that's
 
Colleen McCarty  00:53
right. Pretty sweet. That
 
Leslie Briggs  00:56
happened a little while ago. So yeah, I'm the new legal director at OK Appleseed, the nonprofit that puts on the panic button podcast. What do you do at Oklahoma Appleseed, Lesley. Well, I try to execute your vision. protect the rights of every Oklahoman. We're doing a lot of cool stuff. Really.
 
Colleen McCarty  01:14
Oh my gosh, I know every day I wake up and I'm like, I can't believe I get to do this for a job. And
 
Leslie Briggs  01:19
me too. I love it so much. Yeah, chaotic, and awesome. Just like us just like just a good time, dude,
 
Colleen McCarty  01:28
seriously, we strive for a good time. And seeking justice at the same time. Right. And so in service of seeking justice, we we did this big story about April's case that all of you have heard and I hope it has lit a fire under you because it lit a fire under us. And in service of seeking justice for her. We wrote what's called a post conviction relief application. And I'm going to let Leslie talk to you about what that means and and how we're trying to help her get out of prison.
 
Leslie Briggs  01:57
Yeah, we actually wound up doing that throughout the fall before I came on full time with OK Appleseed. And it's based on new evidence that we uncovered. And we believe that evidence warrants a new trial, or a vacation or sentence, or modification to time served. And that's what we've asked the court to do. We were we lost at the district court, you can go and read all of the pleadings online if you're a legal nerd, or you just want to know more about what the evidence was that we found, but it's currently on appeal. We appealed that district court decision to the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals. And if we lose there, we're going to take it all the way to the top.
 
Colleen McCarty  02:39
How long does it usually take to hear back from the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals?
 
Leslie Briggs  02:43
Oh, I mean, I don't know what the what an average time is, but probably several months, I imagine will be on appeal through the summer at least. And then maybe have a decision at the end of the summer.
 
Colleen McCarty  02:55
Have you talked to April about how she's feeling about all of this?
 
Leslie Briggs  02:59
I think April, I mean, April has been through every possible legal hurdle, multiple times. I mean, she has this is her third post conviction relief application. And she's been through the appellate process before so April kind of knows how to temper expectations and just see what happens more than anything, though. I think April is extremely motivated and excited about the other work we've been doing, which I'm hoping you'll ever give everyone an update about which is our legislative push to change the system.
 
Colleen McCarty  03:32
Yeah, so the nice thing about Oklahoma Appleseed is that we work across multiple sectors of the legal system. So we have been working on multiple fronts to bring justice to April and people like her. That's one of the nice things about the Appleseed model is we work on multiple fronts of the legal system. So we can work in the courts for direct advocacy. But then we also work at the legislative level, and the legal research level and the community organizing level and this project with April and criminalized survivorship in Oklahoma has kind of touched all four of those areas in different ways. We were really trying to think outside the box about how we could help April but not just her but everyone in her situation. And we started looking around the country to see what other folks have been doing. And we found this big group in New York that passed a bill called the domestic violence survivor Justice Act, and that has helped several people since it was passed in 2019. Essentially, people who are in prison who can show proof that they were abused at the time of their crime and that the abuse was substantially related to the crime can apply to their sentencing court and receive sentencing relief or a lower sentence. So we thought about how we could make that something that was really made for Oklahomans by Oklahomans. And we worked with a bunch of groups here in Oklahoma to sort of figure out what survivors need. And we also got several survey responses from over 100 survivors and an Oklahoma prison here where April is called Mabel Bassett. And we've started to put together really what these experiences look like, and how these people are being prosecuted for crimes that stem from their survivorship. And we worked together to come up with some language that we thought would formulate a nice law change here in Oklahoma that would give a lot of these people sentencing relief, but then would also provide a mitigation procedure for people who are currently being prosecuted that can show they can show in a sentencing hearing any evidence that they have of their abuse and get a shorter sentence on the front end of the system, too. So it's not just a retroactive reform, it will do both things which we were pretty excited about putting this together back in the fall, and we were not sure where it was going to go. And then we heard back from a Republican legislator in Oklahoma named Toni Hasenbeck, who's from Elgin, Oklahoma, and she is a fierce champion for women's rights. And she was very disturbed by some of the stories that we were hearing from survivors in prison. And she agreed to author this bill for us.
 
Leslie Briggs  06:22
So Bill have a number. The bill does have finally
 
Colleen McCarty  06:24
has a number. It's HB 1639. It's starting in the Oklahoma House of Representatives. And it will be traveling through it's been introduced, and it has language and we expect it to be heard in committee. Next Wednesday, which is the 28th of February, the year of our Lord 2023. At 10:30am. In the rotunda
 
Leslie Briggs  06:49
Be there or be square. Yeah, right. Yes. We want you to come join us. We have we're doing a ton of stuff at the Capitol next week in celebration and advocacy of this monumental and historic effort that Rep. Hasenbeck is undertaking and Colleen's gonna give you some of those deets.
 
Colleen McCarty  07:08
Yeah, so we'd love to see anyone who's in the Oklahoma City area next week. We have two capital days that volunteers are free to come and meet us in the Supreme Court hallway. We will have water and snacks and talking points and anything you will need to be prepared to speak to your legislators. That date is February 27. We will start advocating at nine and probably be there all day until five. There's a bus leaving from Tulsa, Oklahoma from OSU Tulsa downtown. That will leave at 830 and arrive to the Capitol at about 10 and leave the Capitol at about three and be back by 430 to make sure everyone can pick up their kids and things like that. So if you need a ride, do not hesitate to hop on the just bus just bus I named it myself if I'm really proud of it.
 
Leslie Briggs  08:05
Oh man,
 
Colleen McCarty  08:06
just bus or bust.
 
Leslie Briggs  08:10
Say that three times. Dude, that just bus bust just bear in Tulsa. You do not want to miss that just but
 
Colleen McCarty  08:21
I feel like we're gonna I'm gonna set everybody up with a playlist and it's gonna be fire so far. So get on the bus or don't drive your ass down there.
 
Leslie Briggs  08:30
I don't care. We want to see you there, though.
 
Colleen McCarty  08:32
We want to see all of your faces, even if it's like, I'm just here because I listen to the podcast. I don't care. I want you there.
 
Leslie Briggs  08:38
Yeah, we want you there. We think that I mean, just to support this bill to support what rep Hasselbeck is trying to achieve. For survivors of domestic violence in the state of Oklahoma. It's I mean, it's historic. It's something that we need
 
Colleen McCarty  08:52
it is we just found out that the 2020 numbers showed that more women in Oklahoma are killed by their partners than any other state except one. So we're second in the nation for the number of women being killed by their intimate partners. But then we also know on the flip side, when those survivors rarely are the ones that live in an altercation like that. They're getting life and 30 years and 40 years in prison. And it's not a rare situation.
 
Leslie Briggs  09:19
Yeah. Which is actually kind of a good segue. But it's a good segue into
 
Colleen McCarty  09:25
our teaser, we're previewing also today this season two for
 
Leslie Briggs  09:31
season two, panic button, season two. Should we say the title?
 
Colleen McCarty  09:35
Yeah, we should say the title. That's a good title.
 
Leslie Briggs  09:38
Operation Wildfire.
 
Colleen McCarty  09:40
Yep. Panic Button. Season two Operation Wildfire. We can't spoiler you tonight about why it's called that.
 
Leslie Briggs  09:47
No sport. Yeah, no, absolutely no spoilers, but we'll just say this that like the question. I think that season two is going to be exploring is a lot of people. Plenty of people We'll have rightly asked, Why didn't April just leave? Like, I think that that's not an a strange question to wonder? Like, why didn't April just get out and get away? And so season two, I think is gonna we're gonna really get to explore what happens when they when someone does. What happens when someone gets away? Yeah. What happens to the abuser? What happens to that person? And
 
Colleen McCarty  10:25
yeah, I also think it speaks to what happens when people band together to try to stop a violent person. Yeah. And the power in that but also the questions that that kind of like causes
 
Leslie Briggs  10:43
the obstacles, the challenges and then yeah, like the I think yeah, questions about tactics, questions about results, questions about, I think systemic. I guess failings is the word. But it doesn't seem to really do it justice. It's more like systemic. Like I'm thinking of, well, my sink is broken right now. So it's like, clogs, right? And like the way that the system is just clogged and can't function and you can't get get get the water through to the pipes on the down on this metaphor. It's working. With all these hand motions of sink troubles right now, what's top of mind. But
 
Colleen McCarty  11:26
I think also, it's just like, this is gonna sound like a rant. But for the majority of human history, people were just killing each other, and there were no consequences. Then we had a little bit of human history where the only consequences for any wrongdoing were death, and everyone's getting killed. And then it was like, Okay, well, we can't kill everybody. So let's wind that back a little bit, and just put people in prison for a really long time. But now, we're to this point where it's like, the only real violence at mass scale that happens in our society is violence against women. And there's really Yeah.
 
Leslie Briggs  12:08
What about like mass shootings?
 
Colleen McCarty  12:10
I mean, sure, that is a totally different crime type than what we're talking. Yeah. Yeah. Like a domestic violence call is made every second in America,
 
Leslie Briggs  12:22
right? I mean, we've seen the data here in Oklahoma, and Oklahoma City, our largest metropolitan area. Yeah. So
 
Colleen McCarty  12:28
43,000 domestic violence calls made in 2021. And less than 1000 of those lead to arrest. And so it just starts to ask this question about like, this is the most prevalent type of violence that the system is the most bad at responding to
 
Leslie Briggs  12:46
that I agree with wholeheartedly. Like this violence is so prevalent, and our system doesn't effectively curtail it, or really even punish it, which it's a punitive system. I mean, if it does nothing, well, it punishes people. Well. Yeah, that's this,
 
Colleen McCarty  13:06
but not this. And then it's like, there are just so many ways to get away with it. Right. And the people who know how to get away with it, get away with really get away with it so much, really get away with it. And it's startling, it really is because like I come from criminal justice reform, where everyone's getting punished for every goddamn thing. Yeah. Yeah. And we're trying to stop people for getting punished as much as they are. Yeah. And then walking into this world of domestic violence advocacy and victims advocacy and saying,
 
Leslie Briggs  13:44
This is so warped way. So warped, yeah. Like, it's not capturing the right bad actors at the right moment.
 
Colleen McCarty  13:53
No, and it's not preventing any violence. No, it's actually like, allowing, we talked about this with April's case. But it's allowing these cycles of violence to like, expand and expand and expound because, you know, if you talk to people who work in trauma, or people who try to heal trauma, they will tell you that subconsciously or subconscious wounds are acting themselves out until something happens to cause you to heal it. And if you just keep not getting held accountable. Yeah, it just keeps getting like louder and bigger and more people getting hurt.
 
Leslie Briggs  14:30
Yeah, more chaotic more untethered. I think and those themes are going to be coming through in season two. Certainly.
 
Colleen McCarty  14:37
Yes, but you are going to meet some really fun character. So too.
 
Leslie Briggs  14:40
Yeah. And it's another Oklahoma based story. So we're, we're excited. We're in the research phase. We have two excellent, top notch interns that are plugging away getting us all the details and so they are basically legal research superheroes. I think I called them or Swiss Army Knife interns the other day. I love that they do everything for us there like, I mean, I will message either one of them at like 5pm It'd be like, I need this thing and I'm sorry. It will be like 615 They're like it's done.
 
Colleen McCarty  15:11
It's done. It's in the file.
 
Leslie Briggs  15:12
It's good. Love it. So excellent. So shout out. Alison cat. You guys are true heroes.
 
Colleen McCarty  15:18
Yes. So we don't want to take too much more of your time because we want you to start preparing to come to the Capitol with us next week. There's two days you can do that you can do that Monday the 27th or Thursday, the second we will be conducting community art projects and bringing people together and speaking to the survivor experience in Oklahoma. So we hope you will join us and stay tuned for season two of panic button.
 
Leslie Briggs  15:47
Operation Wildfire.
 
Colleen McCarty  15:54
Panic Button is a co production of Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice and Leslie bricks. We're your hosts Colleen McCarty and Leslie Briggs. Our theme music is velvet rope by Guillaume the production team is Lesley Briggs and rusty row were recorded at Bison and be in studio in Tulsa. Special thanks to Lynn Worley, Amanda Ross and Ashlyn Faulkner for their work on this case. If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at the hotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233 help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Follow us at Oka underscore Appleseed across all social platforms. You can subscribe right now in the Apple podcasts app by clicking on our podcasts logo and then hit the subscribe button. If you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, please join our panic button podcast community on book clubs. Join for free at BIT dot L y slash three in our H O eight. See. Thanks so much for listening